There's a glimmer of hope in this thread but still some fundamental stumbling blocks are there...

@ Ken, you need to play the role of chairperson OR business manager, you need to choose which is best for you and which is best for the community. I can't see you getting anywhere at all without including Eidos and Face and some other key stakeholders in DXMP, including professionals from other games. If people like myself don't agree with you on the basics, how do you think beginners are going to take to your views. It's good we share different views perhaps, but are you really truly capable of representing an entire community, including the ones you blame like "fun" players?

@ Deja, I hate being negative but the fact that artworkers are thin on the ground for you, is because you don't understand them very well, don't understand their needs and have an ability to urine us off to the point where there's no point in working with you. Both you and Ken have a tendency to be autocratic and sure it's ok for gaming and for clans, but you're going to need to put your personal visions aside and realize the end product/solution may be nothing like what you dreamed of. The most serious problem with you is that you don't understand the importance of "dressing the set" or why artworkers want to "ruin" your fps, particularly in a moody and atmospheric game like Deus Ex.

I respect what Poor said and I apologize for my part in being boring last year and having difference with other community members. I've learned from that.

I respect what Cozmo says and he's the only person in this thread who has recognized that to solve the problem, we need to humble ourselves and work with others. I think the third option is actually to at least, discuss the source code via a proper team of people, not some clan with the same idea as everyone else, but a proper effort. If not then it makes sense to use another engine. There is however, interest from people like Jerion and OTP for getting hold of the source in a mixed team of professionals and DXMP guys.

@ Chinny, I'm sorry if I reacted to your post, I don't disagree the idea of less projects and one mother of all projects is a good one, but at the present time, it's not really a feasible option, since there is a deep division amongst 0-auggers/custom and divisions between custom and auggers and so on and so on.

@Deja, "style of Deus Ex", I would say is not enough. Look at me with Hengsha, some guy came along and made something "more like" the original. Your game needs to be pretty much DXMP, not... a game in Deus Ex style, these already exist. No-one is going to help much until something is already going, but you would be surprised, if you do things properly, what can be achieved in the way of enlisting support. It's games devs favourite game, that is a recorded fact, it tops the list. So you can pretty much guarantee that there would be some professional or extra-curricular help given.

Finally, about saying mods wont revive DXMP. Facetown imo will cause the biggest ever return of players, it's a mod. You're still arguing and blaming "fun" players, but you need to realize, there is plenty of life in DXMP, if you STOP trying to make it a shooter, but make it something fun, easy for beginners and include some RPG. I would love it to be a good shooter, but I realized probably about 3 years ago, that it needs lams, beginners, a bit of RPG and people being silly and having fun.

Speaking really bluntly, Cozmo 2 was a bit of a toytown, Hengsha didn't look like Hengsha, we still haven't actually come out with anything that is LIKE single player. I mean standing in the ghetto at night, scary alley ways, listening to NPC talk, just camping out, deciding the next move, is it stealth, or front door guns blazing... instead there's *loving* iceworld. The only project I have seen anywhere near this, is Facetown. I really hate my comments and it's not enjoyable to rant at you guys, but I know one day, you will understand how I was thinking objectively and we shared a common aim.

I'd like to ask as well, how many of you would be willing to pay $5 - $15 per month to play a modern DXMP? I don't mean pay me or Chinny or DJ's bank account, I mean Eidos or whoever.

My advice? Just be doing research, don't start digging foundations on anything until you actually know your options.

ShadowRunner wrote:There's a glimmer of hope in this thread but still some fundamental stumbling blocks are there...

@ Ken, you need to play the role of chairperson OR business manager, you need to choose which is best for you and which is best for the community. I can't see you getting anywhere at all without including Eidos and Face and some other key stakeholders in DXMP, including professionals from other games. If people like myself don't agree with you on the basics, how do you think beginners are going to take to your views. It's good we share different views perhaps, but are you really truly capable of representing an entire community, including the ones you blame like "fun" players?

Personally, I'd prefer the role of a story writer, but since I tend to work fairly well with teams, both irl and online, being a busybody seems to be a necessity in a community where people for the life of them cannot cooperate. Sadly, I far too often have to also remind fellow players that GODZ-SniperBox is not the pinnacle of UE1 mapping. Use this as an allegory for other relevant content.

DXMP in its current shape is an online patch and not an online game. It can, however, be played as an online game, and we have more than a decade to show it. With some mapping, coding, art design, we can turn online patch into an online game. While that alone would allow bringing lot more players in, I feel that it yet would not mandate an advertising campaign that has been shelfed for some 5-7 years from what I figure. In order to give it that additional kick, I've spent lot of time discussing and planning out the possibilities of bridging the SP-MP gap without *loving* metabolic end product up.

This game currently has the modders for most if not all of the tasks neccessary to polish the game; however, since opinions differ so drastically, and some bridges have been burned by the typical dxmp drama, this resource is unlikely to be put in best use. Regardless, I've tried to find helping hands to cut down the amount of work. Quite a few of FGS forum users are involved to some extent or other.

I don't blame "fun" players, I blame ignorance and stupidity. Facepalm is not enough to describe my reaction to the geniuses that tell me bluntly how augmentations are cheats. I cannot even begin to comprehend the pattern of logic that brought them to that conclusion, but more commonly such players proceed to spew other equally intelligent comments a la "kill all niggers" or "you are homosexual".
Mods are part of a healthy community that has editing tools, but modders should not forget what keeps their mods alive.


What regards Facetown, Hengsa, CozmoRPG, none of them will be able to provide amount of content that rivals even pre-MTL DXMP. I have no doubt there is fun to be had in those mods! My grief here is that its not awful lot of gaming hours worth of fun! With a friend we estimated that I have around or over 3000 hours of DXMP behind me. How many hours of fun will those mods provide? 5-10 hours? 20 hours even? If there is a large team behind it, maybe 100 hours? Whatever amount of players you get, they will not stay.

If you refer to the possibility of those mods helping original gametypes, then that is wasted resource as well. Indeed, we could gain some new players, but.. majority of them will not stay, just because this is an online patch.
Amusingly enough, more players will enjoy Facetown and RPG games than classic DXMP, I can easily predict that, but all of those players are completely irrelevant since most of them will not stay even a week or a month. Online game needs playerbase that has at least years worth of stability and only gradual replacement of individuals, not that you suddenly gain 100 players and month later loose 99. Other PVE games tackle this issue through RTS, TBS mechanics, and-or by creating vast open worlds with ridiculously expensive content - something unsuitable for this engine anyway.

Thank you for reading and responding, I'll get off my high horse and remember we're all on the same side too.

Synthetic wrote:What regards Facetown, Hengsa, CozmoRPG, none of them will be able to provide amount of content that rivals even pre-MTL DXMP. I have no doubt there is fun to be had in those mods! My grief here is that its not awful lot of gaming hours worth of fun! With a friend we estimated that I have around or over 3000 hours of DXMP behind me. How many hours of fun will those mods provide? 5-10 hours? 20 hours even? If there is a large team behind it, maybe 100 hours? Whatever amount of players you get, they will not stay.

I see what you are saying, it's a good point, but people like you and I count less than 20-40 perhaps. What I was suggesting was basically the same thing as you, a place better than SniperBox or Iceworld. I'm going to be as stubborn against small maps as Chinny is advocating them, it might work for a game with no augmentations or very experienced players, but in Deus Ex I support the inclusion of spawnrooms, real shadows and spaces where people can toss grenades, hide and have alternate routes than a couple of corridors.

In the case of Cozmo RPG, you might be right as this was our first decent RPG, in the case of Hengsha however, Poor created features which can change all the time, some of which can be changed without even requiring a coder, such as the conversation that players will discover when talking to npc. In the case of Facetown, 5-10 hours is a huge underestimate, I've played three of the missions so far and one is exactly like a SP mission against the NSF and another mission is very original and is a challenge for any skill level. The other mission as well, is a challenge for any skill level, it does require patience, stealth and studying your approach.

New maps and game features will only entertain vets like you to a degree, so I do take your point.

What regards actual quality of the content, preferences and tolerance differ. Deus Ex was astonishing to me 12 years ago when I played it, and to this day it is among my top favourites, but I for one never saw point in TNM nor enjoyed any of the more recent SP mods. During the years those mods were released, I was able to find still plenty amazing SP content from other games, so I would not necessarily attribute it to age either.
Additionally, the point about the graphics of PVE content also still holds.

As for DXMP and improvements, augmentations themselves have given me a fair deal of headache, because it is often tricky to understand what the developers intended with features that are largely useless. What I've found is that the imbalances in augmentation pairings are largely down to unsuitable maps - which shouldn't really be that big of a surprise, I guess.
Currently I am suggesting (and working on) DXMP maps that would make use of DXSP basic principles (atmosphere, realistic locations, 2050s DXSP concepts) while being designed as generic, functional Multi-Player maps. Basic idea involves using common player pathing familiar from any shooter, but with the addition of aqualung support (1), security flanks (2), environmental hazard flanks (3). I have to say I am not very pleased with HDTP (NPC) models that I hoped to find useful. Does WaltonSimon's head even belong to sapient species?

synthetic wrote:I for one never saw point in TNM

I loved tnm. Despite the sub par voice acting, the evil computer program, and the strange ending, I thought everything else was pretty cool.

I liked TNM, but Hotel Carone was far more like Deus Ex to me, if anything could be said, it improved on DX1.

@ Ken

Put it this way, if Deus Ex wasn't different from CS or CSS, I would have never played Deus Ex, but DXMP has removed those important differences, particularly the atmosphere, the ability to hide in shadows, how conversation could be overheard, objectives could be reached without directly attacking the enemy, all of this rarely exists in DXMP. I think also the authors of DXMP failed in the first place, because cloaking, shooting, tech/tool approaches are all unbalanced against each other.

You have very poor understanding of DXMP itself, although you likely have at least occasionally tried to play it.

I want you to show me online shooter where you can overhear conversations, and you may want to think twice before comparing DXMP to CS series..


Edit:

I don't think it is hard to understand why anyone would play DXSP, but I was under the impression that we were discussing DXMP. So you are basically saying you just don't like DXMP? That is fair enough as well.

Those of us who like DXMP play it exactly because it is not like CS series. If anything, it plays out more like Quake or UT except with far more complex mechanics. Any changes that would have to be implemented are largely cosmetic or deal with fixing bugs.

The imbalances you describe do not exist; what is of concern is the lack of purpose for several augmentations, but that can largely be fixed through more suitable maps.

synthetic wrote:Cozmo.. you list number of issues that are as much symptoms of critically low player base as they are issues that could be patched, but you then describe reasons against releasing that very patch, reasons that you'll encounter on a new engine all the same (such as advertising) - and this time without as much (if any) support from the single player. Then you suggest pure PVP is an issue on top of it.

The order of my post was a jumbled mess but I still stand by those points. I never cited PvP as a problem though, just using it to explain why we've suddenly gone from having some regular players on server list, to pretty much none. (Believe me I'm not trying to make DXMP about PvE; I'm more of a player than a modder, but sadly nobody seems to acknowledge me as anything other than 'RPG guy'...) I gave reasons against a patch preemptively because I knew people would suggest it.

The reason I'm so intent on a new engine is because a patch that fixes the endless UE1 problems without forcing people to manually download a new client is impossible. We'd have even less chance of getting new players, and would possibly divide or shrink existing community even further. Even people who tried the MP once years ago, experienced GODZ_CASTLE or w/e then never returned won't bother if they somehow hear about said patch. A free to play DXMP-inspired game playable even in browsers would get a lot more attention, would be easier to work with, would take no time for players to install, play on any PC etc etc etc.

The only problem...

Deja wrote:I am up for a game in style of dxmp. Whatever engine is used... I see the problem in artworkers only - there are simply not enough of them. It is enough to have 1 coder, but you need 30 artworkers.

Given permission from DaveW and the HDTP team, we'd have a ton of art assets to start off with. Would require rigging etc for skeletal animation, and texture to material work, but that stuff's easy.

and yeah, agreed Cozmo_RPG is incredibly bad, but come on it's literally how I started learning to code : <

To enjoy decent game with reasonable population all these three options are equally viable: a) patch b) free fan engine port c) new game.
In this order the prospect of success becomes smaller as the amount of work necessary grows larger. Check UT99 or Q3A server list to see if there is much to be unhappy with regarding old online shooters in general.

Ultimately it comes down to having a motivated team that is up to the task, and I guess thats what most of us in this thread are scouting for anyway. Plans are worth nothing if they cannot be realized. My focus is on patch because I cannot see the necessary level of cooperation for options B or C. I'm not interested in spending 10 years of my life making a game that will be old when its released.

Discussion hasn't even reached the team effort part yet, as we're still largely arguing what DXMP actually is. This shouldn't even be a matter of debate. How are we going to unite for the better of DXMP if we don't know what we want? Some people here seem to want DXSP, and I'm sure DX4 will be out sometime..

DejaVu here is veteran DXMP player, so he knows what he wants from a new game. Cozmo has played all game types, but appears to have a preference for PVE survival games or Singleplayer design. Most of the others have never gotten into DXMP.. and I'm pretty sure I recall couple geniuses here who argued that Deus Ex RPG elements are effectively cheats.


DXMP is a first-person shooter with RPG elements, just like SP.
Please note that it is not 0a, altfire, or any other mods - those are, well, mods. Also, being a tiny multiplayer addon it doesnt have much in it, but it has all the necessary basics to be what it is.

Although it is sometimes argued whether or not there was any point in making MP for DX anyway, the developers went with the most logical, predictable, and playable route. DXMP makes sense exactly how it is. It is just that it could be developed further into a full blown MP game with additional MP features.

While current DXMP is the most predictable and understandable solution, it is not necessarily the only MP concept it could have supported.

DXMP is a Standard shooter with RPG elements (rewards, skills, augs); or it could have been Species shooter with RPG elements, where augmented are pitted against generic marine types. DXMP could've been an FPS with RPG elements and RTS elements, or it could've left out RPG elements and for some reason focused on RTS elements.

What ever the case, DXMP could have omitted Skill Points, and particularly frag rewards, but in all cases augmented players would be present in the server. Generic DXMP shooter without RPG elements would simply leave our skills, make some use of inventory items that use up spaces, and issue either configurable augs (class FPS) or stock augs (class-less FPS).

Snowblind and Crysis fall under some of those categories.

All of those are PVP Shooter models. PVE shooter is either some kind of easter egg, tech demo, or a game with massive amount of content. Small content PVE online FPS games do not persist, will not sell particularly well unless priced low, and will not provide "online" for very long - making more sense to design *offline* instead.

This is what DXMP could be, and is fairly close to being:

Scout DPS role - Exists
Tank/Frontline - Exists
Medic role - n/a
Hacker/Engi role - exists in one or two aspects of current gameplay.

Note that roles are not classes, as Deus Ex was always classless game.

Maps with generic pathing network at runspeed level and augmented jumps - Exists, could be better
+ separate aqualung support - 2 out of 5 maps
+ separate Enviro resi support - n/a
+ separate beefed up stealth/electronics security flanks - currently, one or few turrets

Significantly better textures
Player avatars
Improved models
Improved + specialized maps
actual MP menu functionality and features (votes)

and so on and on and on.. which ever team takes on new engine will have to think of all this anyway.

Ken, I love you but the sad part is, you're talking about DXMP in present tense... let me correct your grammar please, another reality check is in order.

Multiplayer WAS a shooter, not "is". I see more people on co-op and RPG servers these days than anywhere else.

Here's why it failed and what you are suggesting, will fail just as hard...

"Should I give the junkie $ or not. Should I find that Ambrosia vial and heal my teammate or not? It's missing from MP, but is there in the AWARD-winning game. Should I give my teammate a medkit or should I let him die, because, you know what, he didn't give the junkie the $ and now we haven't found the password to that door. Should I kill this person, or should I tranq him and let him think twice about hurting the hooker." There's no humanity at all from SP in the MP game.

You're stubbornly holding on to the idea that you can find people who want to play a modern version of an unfinished game. The more intelligent option would be to have a modern version of the game, WITH all those features that were missing from SP. DXMP didn't win anything, but SP won 40 GOTY awards, but you're arguing against having this online, it's fubar.

You have your head stuck on faulty logic. You want to bring back an unfinished game, rather than finish it.

If you polled the 2 million people who have bought DX3, your theories would be blown out of the water so hard. Do you think people played DX3 for the combat, weapons or the graphics? They played it for different reasons. That's not my opinion, but what Eidos and the media say about it. It's not a shooter, never was. The fact that MP is unfinished, doesn't mean that DXMP was a shooter, it was unfinished. At the very best your ideas are going to bring back a few DXMP players and a few people who will play it until the next shooter comes along, which is EXACTLY what happened with MW2.

Try arguing your case on DX3 forums, people are going to think you are a crackpot, basically suggesting there should not be SP online, or action RPG, that you seriously expect people to modernize an unfinished game that has been hijacked and dominated by a handful of experienced players who have also removed even items from the MP game. The only place people will listen to your theory, is a place like this, where a handful of players still care about the shooter. A massive majority of the potential player population want to experience the SP online.

You're flogging a dead donkey my friend. Sure by all means have your shooter version of DX, but live and let live, or get shoved to the side by literally hundreds of thousands of people who would be interested in a decent MP version of the SP.

Also I'm not even sure DX1 by itself is enough. If I were recreating the game online, I'd have characters, weps, locations and features from all 3 titles. It's going to be further and further sidelined, the more that Eidos release new titles, yet you are facing an opportunity, a lifeline, but your obsession with 2001 unfinished version of MP is getting the better of your judgement.

Deus Ex is Action RPG, not a shooter, Eidos are clear about that. It's not an argument, there's no possible way you can convince 2 million people otherwise.

Multiplayer very much still is, and is more than it was in years 2004,2005,half of 2006, list goes on. The number of people you refer to are predominantly little kids, and I say this because those names are familiar to me as is their general behaviour. Content that matches the age, perhaps? It was not unusual for original DXMP players to be in their 20s if not even 30s. I agree that my content suggestions are not necessarily ideal for 12yearold kids, and I don't care much for shaping the future community of DXMP after early runescape.

Humanity in MP games is the players. That is why it is MP game. The choices you speak of are Single Player content that - to variable degree - are occasionally used in MMORPGs that survive not only due to the content but also due to the sheer number of other players, creating its own unique "content". Last MMORPG released to hype STORY and player decision IMPACT was SWTOR, and it was - simply put - a bad game.

You say my head is stuck on faulty logic while you have no comprehension of how MP games work. And by stating that I want to bring back an unfinished game you make the mistake of thinking I too am completely oblivious to how online games work. On DX3 forums I presume there are some players that have seen an online game once in their life, so I wouldn't worry about it.

Might've helped if you actually read anything I wrote instead of just pushing this nonsense in my face. You want SP features - fine, we get it, and you aren't alone with that thought, but figure out how online games implement those features before you go on about your views on finishing it, I mean Totally Converting for month's worth of attention. Not long until you will be cursing the game, the community, and the engine, likely on these forums. And that won't help the game in any way.

synthetic wrote:The number of people you refer to are predominantly little kids, and I say this because those names are familiar to me as is their general behaviour. Content that matches the age, perhaps? It was not unusual for original DXMP players to be in their 20s if not even 30s. I agree that my content suggestions are not necessarily ideal for 12yearold kids, and I don't care much for shaping the future community of DXMP after early runescape.

lol Ken 2 million players of DX3 are little kids? My previous post refers to polling them.

Humanity in MP games is the players. That is why it is MP game. The choices you speak of are Single Player content

lol, so DXAG, SG, CozmoRPG, Hengsha and Facetown are single player content are they Ken, okeydokey.

lol so your choices are assaultgun or sniper rifle and that will revive DX?

And that won't help the game in any way.

People like Chin and myself and I think Cozmo, came to the game in 2004/5 mostly. The busiest servers we ever saw were DXAG and DXSG and for a short while, Platoon server. Nothing else has ever come close to filling two servers all day/night long as DXSG and DXAG. It is you that is speaking nonsense. If I'm wrong, why did Deja make AvH or why did Face make Alien Hunt, or why did Nobody make DXSG Cathedral, the way he did, or why did Cozmo make Cozmo RPG, or why did 40+ people help on Hengsha. This is why the community suffers, because one half of the community has a problem with the other, when there's no reason to stamp out or discourage any part of the creative community. DXAG and DXSG was busier than anything I ever saw. Interesting too, in 2004, the busiest server was the one that made it easier for people. You're in denial Ken.

I wish you luck in creating a classic game and finding regular players. I would play a default map server, with nothing except security patches, original DXMP, but not many would. The only reason I play 0-aug is because others do and because these guys support mappers and host their work. It's the same reason I tried altfire server in 2005, Godzserver and default map servers were boring or full of newb-bashers and Altfire was a cool place with cool maps.

I've never ever ever seen DXSG as the busiest server

But it was.. at the time around 2005-2006, when SG was hosted in combination with tactical and medium gravity.