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A solution for the GameSpy masterserver issue


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Smirftsch
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Re: A solution for the GameSpy masterserver issue - Postby Smirftsch » 11 May 2014, 18:52


Alexander wrote:Your point has been noted HDD21, but please, don't keep repeating yourself.

I am going to stick by my opinion on this, feel free to create your own patch or whatsoever of course.
Besides aiming for a primary longterm and stable solution, there are also other aspects that need to be considered when using multiple masterservers.
Clients fetch info from multiple masterservers, what if one of them eventually become malicious? Feeding incorrect info to the client, or even flooding the client with fake IPs. Noone researched things like these before (as far as I know), so no, I still don't like the idea of wildly hosted masterservers.

I'll repeat myself once again, Deus Ex Network is meant as a community project and I just reached out to Nobody to share control of the Deus Ex Network masterserver (if you read this, just log into Steam, you'll see an offline message or two I sent you).


Your logic is flawed. You do the same mistake already done and existing now when trying to rely on a single MasterServer. If YOU suddenly decide to quit or leave, the community will be forced to die as well. As Unreal only player I really couldn't care less if or if not any DeusEx player or admin will take my offer to use my MasterServer as well, but being in the same situation it should be more than obvious what happens if there is no redundancy. No single person can guarantee to be responsible for a complete community, you can't, I can't and never said I could, although Oldunreal is existing over 14 years now, big companies like GameSpy can't - it should be obvious: nobody can. Cancer got me almost into grave already a few years ago and I would have been gone. Zapp. End of Story. What's the downside of multiple masterserver? If one shuts down, nothing will happen except a failed request and a few bytes of useless text in an ini file of the client.
Your argument with malicious information in a MS makes the idea of redundant servers even more obvious, if your server would be hacked in any way all community would be down without any fallback also.
So if you insist to handle it all alone the only thing happening is that you force people into another dependency and if not agreeing with you, it can even split the entire community. Don't be so ignorant.

Just my five cents.


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Re: A solution for the GameSpy masterserver issue - Postby Alexander » 11 May 2014, 20:53


First off, I don't think you understood what I meant with malicious masterservers.

And I don't insist on handling this all by myself, the masterserver is actually backed by a few, all of which are in control. The only thing currently in control by me is the domainname itself (as it's registered to my name), and I'm still thinking of ways to 'fix' that.

But once again, I don't make the rules, I don't force people to follow my solution, but you make it seem like I do.
I weighed the pro's and con's of the solutions at hand and made my own - personal - decision. I take action and I try to cover all issues as fast as possible as it's already 11th of May, thus we have less than 3 weeks remaining.

I personally think my solution is the best for this situation at the moment. It does not require any modifications for the client (as it's all done automatically), it does not require mods to be installed that players might not even trust. Besides that I try to make the masterserver as stable and solid as possible, with several masterservers on the background ready to take over in case the primary goes offline (Currently being tested with, see her). This will be an automatic failover that kicks in within 5-10 minutes of the primary masterserver going offline. Your solution might be best in the long run (even though with risks, as I explained before), but you're on your own on producing and spreading it.


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Re: A solution for the GameSpy masterserver issue - Postby Smirftsch » 12 May 2014, 09:11


Alexander wrote:First off, I don't think you understood what I meant with malicious masterservers.

No matter what you meant with that, your server(s) could be affected as well. Your "risks" count for you the same as for anyone else, seen from the "outside".

Alexander wrote:And I don't insist on handling this all by myself, the masterserver is actually backed by a few, all of which are in control. The only thing currently in control by me is the domainname itself (as it's registered to my name), and I'm still thinking of ways to 'fix' that.

Which means still the same, it would be only controlled by one person and if something is happening with you, the rest would be lost. Don't get this as mistrust or even an insult, I am sure you are a reliable person and I don't want to question your intentions, but its simply that there are 1001 good reasons why one could quit/leave and no one else is able to do something about. All would be so easy if we could get control over gamespy cname and point it to a reliable replacement. For all others it would be same if you would be gone and again, don't get me wrong on that, I don't think you want to leave or that you would let the community down in any way as long you have a choice, but there are situations in which there is none and then a backup is needed to work things out.

Alexander wrote:But once again, I don't make the rules, I don't force people to follow my solution, but you make it seem like I do.
I weighed the pro's and con's of the solutions at hand and made my own - personal - decision. I take action and I try to cover all issues as fast as possible as it's already 11th of May, thus we have less than 3 weeks remaining.

Of course you do, if you want to hear this or not and if this is your intention or not, because your personal decision creates a solution others obviously disagree with (for good reason I think) and especially people who are not involved in this matter will have to chose between your and possible other, in this case obviously conflicting, solutions.

Alexander wrote:I personally think my solution is the best for this situation at the moment. It does not require any modifications for the client (as it's all done automatically), it does not require mods to be installed that players might not even trust. Besides that I try to make the masterserver as stable and solid as possible, with several masterservers on the background ready to take over in case the primary goes offline (Currently being tested with, see her). This will be an automatic failover that kicks in within 5-10 minutes of the primary masterserver going offline. Your solution might be best in the long run (even though with risks, as I explained before),

Again, I never questioned your intentions or reliability and that wasn't my intention either. But what if you had an accident? What if your provider lets you down? What you lose control by being hacked whatever whatever whatever...?
And of course it would require a mod and more modifications than simply replacing it with one server by modifying a single line, but yet people have to trust you in both cases either way. Both are manipulating the client, how much can't be overseen by the "out of the box user", he has to trust you.

Alexander wrote:but you're on your own on producing and spreading it.

First off, I never wanted to and I won't do that. I am not even in the community in question, it's not about me, I won't get involved any more than here because I just think you are doing a mistake. But that answer is exactly the opposite of what I meant by trying to avoid splitting the community, because others probably will do.


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Re: A solution for the GameSpy masterserver issue - Postby Alexander » 12 May 2014, 09:42


First of all I'm sorry that I wont go in on every point you made.

As far as I know, I setup a masterserver and a tool to switch from Gamespy to this masterserver. If people want to use a different solution (such as the multi-masterserver lister), that does not conflict at all. My "tool"/solution wont prevent them from using any other solution it. Actually, other solutions prevent them from using my solution. But I don't mind, and you won't see me complaining about it.

I personally do not trust a multitude of (randomly setup) masterservers, thus I am unwilling to support it. It's that simple.
If you (and by 'you' I mean you and everyone else who it might apply to) think you can do it better, then do so! But stop bitching about how I think of things. I don't like the other solution (with reasons I explained before), but I didn't spoke a word of it until the solution I offer was criticized and compared to it.


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Re: A solution for the GameSpy masterserver issue - Postby Smirftsch » 12 May 2014, 11:02


bitching? If you want to take this as bitching, so be it, for me it just looks like being impervious to advice. And there is no need to become hostile now with this crap like "think you can do it better", that's not what I said or meant.
PS: and no need for further hostility, I won't waste any more time here, I really see no need in becoming affected for an advice and sorry if you feel offended by that.


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Re: A solution for the GameSpy masterserver issue - Postby chin.democ. » 12 May 2014, 11:12


Discussion is healthy, it would be great if we could roll all these workarounds into one huge megafix.


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Re: A solution for the GameSpy masterserver issue - Postby HDD21 » 12 May 2014, 12:39


Thing is the points I see are as follows and we are going to have to agree to disagree on some points alex but I hope this doesn't stop any of us working together in the future, were only human, after all:

Ingame: The fix alex suggested by a player joining the server and needing NO modifications and just pressing a button is the best solution in the short term, getting most players as possible to a masterserver where all servers are listed, before the 31st of may. Quite rightly he says we have less than 3 weeks remaining. We are against the clock.

But now it comes to making an EXE patch. It would be foolhardy not to do one with redundancy in mind. I am going to be working on one that allows multiple
masterservers because I feel that is the best, and safest solution long term. Also could be promoted in the server list because your ingame fix, through no fault of your own has two flaws: Default.ini and reinstall of the game. Thing is I respect alex's efforts, and alex you are not stupid, not in the slightest
you yourself even made a mod that allowed use of multiple masterservers, MMUserInterface. I really do think that one master is dangerous. Like the blood
clot in the brain analogy survive a block in the internal cartoid artery with no circle of willis - such a slim chance you never knew but with no redundancy...
But if it happens again? You will be transitioning to the spirit world faster than you can say transition although I beleve these kind of things are fated and part of ones pathway but thats for another topic entirely! What alex is suggesting is an artery leaking and affecting the surrounding arteries, and this is where its impossible to compare using this analogy any longer, and more arteries equals more opportunity for a leak? possibly. But there is way more chance of loosing a single domain than these masterservers doing as he suggested, smirf has hosted the oldunreal MS for a long time. The masters I have shown are hosted by people who wish to preserve the communities, why waste their time if they later planned to be malicious? The security of these masters is being worked on, as we speak. master.dxmp.ie was not usable when I tested.

I do plan to promote this patch and I have been discussing it with a couple of people and had some very interesting discussions even if we go off topic into quantum physics and the like! I also did suggest going to glu after the 31st and appealing to their better nature about a CNAME domain being added to master0.gamespy.com.

I bought the dxmp.net domain yesterday on a whim and do plan to work with it, as my time allows. The community is too fragmented and now such an issue has happened like gamespy, we have been unable to send off the warning alarm as good as we would like. But bear with me on this one, as nothing is set in stone yet due to my work. But inbetween calls and evenings I can work on it. Apart from Wednesdays I do nights. Also am a darkroom photographer thus can be quite busy.

For now, I am going to configure any patch I use to use the following masterservers uplink AND downlink, dxmp.net will be on a seperate server than my master2. In the same house, but on my second 150mbps connection, UPS, surge protection, the lot. Like my first server. As I am self employed and work from home I know the need for backups, my work phone line going down meant I had to reroute calls to my backup landline, woud have been 300 in lost earnings. An unexpected fault you NEED redundancy! A tiny little box tucked away out of sight with VNC access will be the second server. I will have my psychic services site for my work on the same server, like hell would I host something that my carrier depends on if the machine was not reliable! If need be I could point master.dxmp.net to another server At some point getting redfire to point the domain to another server would be a good idea, to yet again increase redundancy as at least 3 of them are pointing to the same. Also is spreading 'control' evenly and fairly. If i popped my clogs or vanished, which I have no intention of doing, even if i am not very active I still wish to provide; you can be damn sure that domain would come available. Just like fragaholic did, The oldunreal.com is in the hands of one of the people I trust the most in this reguard. But like smirf said what happens if... DeusEx network has been up for years and I do not see it going down soon, alex knows what he is doing, but no way do I wish to hand control to a single domain. And alex it is no offence to you as you have done alot for the community in the past and I think your intentions are nothing but good, and I can read people like an open book now, if you had bad intentions i would have said something. I never ignore my gut these days. But control to one domain in the long term, not an ideal solution in my eyes, and most would agree. Not trying to point-score either I am just pointing it out. Ingame, your solution is superb. A patch? Might as well do the thing properly. We have ONE shot that this. We wouldn't survive another blow like this... These are trusted servers and if anymore wish to come forward, please feel free. I will also see if we cannot get qtracker's developers to add Deus Ex support. These masters will be able to host on all gamenames. Different views or not, working together is crucial and I do hope we can all share ideas even if we disagree on this front, what is life without some disagreements, it is a fact every person is unique.

1 = master.deusexnetwork.com
2 = master.dxmp.net
3 = master.oldunreal.com
4 = master2.oldunreal.com
5 = master.errorist.tk
6 = master.333networks.com
7 = master.fragaholic.com
8 = master.noccer.de

AS gamespy is going down I will omit it.

P.S smirf makes a fair point about death, not wanting to bring it up because I would hope we ve all got plenty of years in us yet! that being one that's beyond your control, while me and my mother both knew about her death six months to a week in advance, she had no known medical problems and ironically it was a ruptured aneyrism on the circle of willis ACoM artery. Unplanned. One minute fine, next minute with a searing headache, rushed into the same hospital she had worked 30 years and the same ward she had worked, seizure, collapsed, mechanical ventilation. Gave the doctors time of brainstem death / astral cord snapping, before they had told anyone else, 10PM, june 15, 2013. She went from headache to seizure/collapsed All in less than 2 hours. Whole family in tatters and many have now gone their separate ways or point scoring against eachother, which she had buffered for years. Sudden, yet catastrophic. If the owner of the only MS was to die I would be more concern about their loved ones than a game but he is right , it would tear the whole thing down and years worth of gaming and passtime for other people could be lost. We need redundancy, death of the hoster is alot less likely than other things happening beyond their control, but he was just covering all bases. Sudden things are a possibility. Think ourselves lucky we got adequate notice, many of gamespy based games were shut down without any! I intend to cover all the bases possible.


Last edited by HDD21 on 12 May 2014, 12:53, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A solution for the GameSpy masterserver issue - Postby Alexander » 12 May 2014, 12:52


Smirftsch wrote:bitching? If you want to take this as bitching, so be it, for me it just looks like being impervious to advice. And there is no need to become hostile now with this crap like "think you can do it better", that's not what I said or meant.
PS: and no need for further hostility, I won't waste any more time here, I really see no need in becoming affected for an advice and sorry if you feel offended by that.

I call it bitching because the same points keep being repeated, and it's becoming tiring. I'm not impervious to advice, I simply weigh things differently, which apparently makes my view on things flawed/incorrect.
I've spoken about this to several people, both via here, personal messages and IRC, and also explained multiple times that I am not against the concept of multiple masterservers, but I am against the concept of including wildly hosted masterservers in a potential fix. (Due to the risks I explained before).

But please, let's stay ontopic here shall we? I think I created this topic to announce the solution I offer and the progress related to it. If you could, please keep general discussions elsewhere.


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Re: A solution for the GameSpy masterserver issue - Postby HDD21 » 12 May 2014, 13:00


To give you the credit alex you have done a good job in doing this with so little time left and yours is currently the only solution 'out' there, where patches are concerned. The ingame server join button fix really is the best one fit for its purpose I will continue to support you in your efforts and while we disagree, I have discussed the list of masters with many people, carefully.

Thing is why not work on something similar to MMUserInterface180 or expand on that idea. Incorporate it even, which even had a favourites section, multiple masters, which a mod you made supported that... But of a U turn if you asked me going from that to a single point of failure in a game patch! That was handy the favourites part I can tell you that, although bcombinemasterservers=true on 180 seems to result in no list on my tests. as yours has been one of the longest-standing community sites, it will be entry 0 in the list, not that it gets a higher priority over any of the others, mind. I just know its been a long standing one. May even be last man standing in future? no way to predict that due to free will choices and many years into the future.


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Re: A solution for the GameSpy masterserver issue - Postby jager774 » 12 May 2014, 14:28


So... There is still some chance of me playing DXMP again, with actual people this time?*-*


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Re: A solution for the GameSpy masterserver issue - Postby ~DJ~ » 12 May 2014, 16:27


errr I cba to read the posts completely but uh why don't you go ahead and make the patch yourself Jake?
put it on the 0 or 1 or however you wish, put the dej's patch or whatever you want in it as well, and promote it if you think Alex's patch isn't the best option?


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Re: A solution for the GameSpy masterserver issue - Postby ~][FGS][Nobody~ » 12 May 2014, 19:12


To give my two cents.. for the lulz, I would still add gamespy to that masterserverlist.
Maybe, one day we get the domain and then we would feel pretty stupid not to have added it. #-o


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Re: A solution for the GameSpy masterserver issue - Postby machete » 13 May 2014, 17:14


This idea that Alex will leave and we'll all be fucked is completely irrational.

As long as you trust him enough to give us deusexnetwork.com (why wouldn't he? we'd be paying for it) in the event that he leaves then there is absolutely no problem. It'd hardly be a lot to ask of him to do that so I trust that he would follow through with it.

As he's already explained, deusexnetwork.com can be set up to point to the single strongest replacement masterserver at any given point, which, right now, seems to be the one at 333network.


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Re: A solution for the GameSpy masterserver issue - Postby synthetic » 14 May 2014, 18:11


Alex is doing this for DXMP and not for himself. It would be typical if the community were to scare away another helpful (and useful) person.

Most of the criticism ITT is aborted from the reality of the situation the community is faced with, or was never in touch with it to begin with.

Having multiple people that can access, fix, or take over whatever MS related tasks is plain common sense and hardly a debatable point. Because of my first point, it should come as no surprise that Alex has already thought of it.

Only useful piece of advice I spotted here was from Nobody, about keeping the gamespy added.


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Re: A solution for the GameSpy masterserver issue - Postby machete » 14 May 2014, 20:56


synthetic wrote:Alex is doing this for DXMP and not for himself. It would be typical if the community were to scare away another helpful (and useful) person.

I would follow him to the gates of hell!


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