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63 zone limit? & other questions


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mikak
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Re: 63 zone limit? & other questions - Postby mikak » 23 Feb 2014, 15:18


hi again all, guess it is considered poor form to bump ones own topic, but i didn't feel i warranted starting another topic as my questions are basically just progress from where these left me at. thanks for all your excellent answers too, really very helpful

sorry i've been awol from dxmp since new yr, been busy catching up on work on my farm, trying to get a crop of pumpkins in before autumn. yep. Deus Ex farmer right here :-s

so i guess my questions are thus:

nb, i type alot, hence gorgeous green highlights for simplification because i too lazy to edit out the filler

#1) WTF is wrong with copy/paste? sometimes i get nothing at all, other times only actors (no brushes), sometimes all the properties return to default (64 radius lights etc), more than once i've copied stuff into a fresh map but it won't rotate, well no, it does rotate, but it transforms its shape! spooky as! does that make sense? ill try to elaborate, elevator shaft, 256 x, 320 y. rotate 90% now exactly the same, so weird. okay sorry, so first question was basically a rant. but seriously is there some kind of failure proof method of copy/pasting? it works eventually, closing both windows, starting fresh fixes it, bit annoying tho

#2) so spotlight... i've given up on it, i use tiggerlight with lighttype as spotlight now. problem with normal spotlight is it crashes my maps almost as soon as i add one. if placed into anything more complex than a cube seems to kill the editor, i use the bsp view or zones view (the one with the psycadelic colouring). the problem with triggerlight tho, it doesnt show an arrow! i literally spent 2 hrs trying to get my spotlight to face the floor (refer pic) because rotating down, faced the light up. its funny in hindsight. oh that pic is sort of confusing, sorry, that is 6 brushes, 6 trigger light spotlights, 6 tiny radius lights to shine around the light fixture a bit, the spotlight faced to the right of screen, so i used the red brush of the light fixture to rotate it 180degrees, then got it to face inline with fixture, but then for the vertical angle, it was inverted! the angle that the red brush is at, is the angle to get it to face the direction of the brushes. so do you guys use spotlight? or triggerlight/spotlight? and how do you tell the direction it is facing without loads of rebuilds since it has no directional arrow!?

#3) actor symbols. say the light's torch. are we able to change the pic? i would find it really helpful to have different pics for different styles of light. i'm sure i seen a corona actor pic in one of the mods, i dont remember which, instead of a torch it was a tiny sun. my coronas are just torches, am i doing it wrong, or were they just doing it better?

#4) sitpoints. so sitpoints. Palm, smacks into Face. HARD. can we set which sitpoint a pawn will sit at? or set sitpoint= false? occasionally an npc will bump into something on the way to sit down, and then wander over the whole map looking for a seat, finally deciding on the piano stool, or the spare chair in the alley

#5) steps. i got a bit of a problem with some of my furnishings, ie. hospital cots, i walk into a room and the nurses are atop the beds, they are spawned quite far away, in the hallway, they walk into the room, magically step 40uu high onto the bed and then never jump back down. my friend told me to use a monsterblock, is that what you guys would recommend? he knows unreal, but not deus ex unfortunately) also, when does a step become a jump for the player? and are the npc animations designed for step lengths of a certain length? or am i being a total weirdo about all this... i've been using 16high 24 or 20length steps since i started unrealing, because 32long seems more unrealistic, like a 1 and a half step step, ya'll recon? meh ignore me, im prob just thinking it thru too much.

#6) player jump heights, maybe this should warrant a new topic or perhaps me trawling thru the posts to find if its already answered. how high and how far can a player jump with leg augs at different lvls? i was going to test for myself. but... half arse excuse here

#7) texture surface properties/effects, can someone put me in the right direction of a list of all the surface properties/effects, i have got it sorted on a basic level, but sometimes i do dumb stuff, like accidently setting all textures on a 30,000 poly map to high shadow detail and listening to the fan on my laptop wear down its bearing trying to stop the whole thing exloding during the rebuild :ney:

#8) more texture stuff. mirrors and polished floors. is it possible to manipulate the level of reflectivity? that is to say; to less reflective, say 25% or maybe only 10% (upon my guess/assumption that mirror = 100% reflection, polished = 50% reflectivity.

EDIT: i referenced a pic i didn't add (spotlights with no arrow :()
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triggerspotlight.JPG
spotlight with no arrow!
triggerspotlight.JPG (41.83 KiB) Viewed 18362 times


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Re: 63 zone limit? & other questions - Postby ShadowRunner » 23 Feb 2014, 15:58


#1) WTF is wrong with copy/paste?


I only copy/paste brushes, nothing else and only as a last resort. Duplication of brushes even can lead to disaster on big maps. Do not attempt to copy or duplicate lights, actors, anything at all except brushes. Copy polygons to brush is the best option. T3D files also can be imperfect.

#2)
Spotlight should be straightfowards, with the right properties. Maybe I don't understand the problem with trigger light.

I've never even heard of sitpoints, so I wonder what you are trying to achieve. I am not sure about mirror strength either.

#5)If indoors, the best way to make steps is not to subtract, but to subtract a space then add the steps as an add brush. Steps can be semi-solid to reduce stress, if tested ok. 16 high and 160 or 256 I usually use, I don't like narrow stairs.

#6) player jump heights, maybe this should warrant a new topic or perhaps me trawling thru the posts to find if its already answered. how high and how far can a player jump with leg augs at different lvls? i was going to test for myself. but... half arse excuse here


Maybe you are right because that might depend on server settings.

#7) texture surface properties/effects, can someone put me in the right direction of a list of all the surface properties/effects, i have got it sorted on a basic level, but sometimes i do dumb stuff, like accidently setting all textures on a 30,000 poly map to high shadow detail and listening to the fan on my laptop wear down its bearing trying to stop the whole thing exloding during the rebuild :ney:

The list is accessible by right clicking and looking in surface properties.


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Re: 63 zone limit? & other questions - Postby mikak » 23 Feb 2014, 22:11


mikak wrote: i was going to test for myself. but... half arse excuse here


if anyone has more accurate or conflicting data, please do say so!, boxes went up in 4uu increments, so they could be slightly off. i did notice JC can jump as high while crouching as he can while standing, i didn't think to try it after he got his augs tho. if anyone has a good idea of how to test jump lengths; please suggest, because i can't think of any easy ways that don't involve me climbing out of water lots and lots of times

thanks shadow. i've been using 'copy polygons to brush' alot, rather then using duplicate, but i've been building over several maps, hence copy paste, ill see if i can copy the brush before it is an add/subtract, don't know why i didn't try that before... or ill just rebuild each brush in a fresh map, probably not a bad idea for some small areas, bit daunting for larger more complex geometry tho

sit points: feature of chairs, couches, etc. i guess i will block every seat i don't want an npc sitting in, and separate the seated parties by a larger distance so they all have a chance to take their seat before interrupting each other, unless someone else knows something about seating?
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JC jump test
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Re: 63 zone limit? & other questions - Postby ~DJ~ » 24 Feb 2014, 02:09


sorry for being half-arsed myself, too.. I just skim-read and the thing I could answer easily on top of me head was like one of your points.... I'll read your post again some other time I hope, but meanwhile.. :oops: :oops:
Spoiler: "3rd Point"
mikak wrote:
#3) actor symbols. say the light's torch. are we able to change the pic? i would find it really helpful to have different pics for different styles of light. i'm sure i seen a corona actor pic in one of the mods, i dont remember which, instead of a torch it was a tiny sun. my coronas are just torches, am i doing it wrong, or were they just doing it better?


just right-click any lights, and go to their default properties. (as in, Light's properties)
Next; go towards the 'Display' tab, and on their you will find this thingie called 'Texture', you can change that to anything. So.. yeah. there you go.

one more thing though, I haven't read much of your posts but uh, copy-pasting problems and other stuff? well.. there's Veronika's SDK, you should try that. Get that, maybe it has less bugs and shizz, works better, she's done lots of amazing stuff yeh.. so yeah.


...about jumps.. well, gonna be stupid here too cause' I don't know metabolic end product, but humans/players have this on their defaultproperties:
Code: Select all
JumpZ=300.000000


now.. what the heck is that in Unreal Units? or what units are those in? Iuno.
The speed-aug sets these accordingly;
Code: Select all
Player.JumpZ *= LevelValues[CurrentLevel];

Code: Select all
     LevelValues(0)=1.200000
     LevelValues(1)=1.400000
     LevelValues(2)=1.600000
     LevelValues(3)=1.800000


so the maximum value for the player's jump with maximum upgraded speed-aug is:
300.000000 x 1.800000 = 540.000000

but what does that even mean? no clue. your pic's nice and cool though and I should go probably sleep now.
GOODLUCK!


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Re: 63 zone limit? & other questions - Postby mikak » 24 Feb 2014, 03:24


woot! thanks DJ, that's perfect, so much easier to identify which lights are which; spotlights, normal lights and coronas all within a 32uu box, for a whole hallway, now colour coded, grouped and everything :D damn i forgot the ascii thing for have a cookie

a 2d sheet that always faces the player, i see great potential in this too. double cookie!

hope i'm using the right copy of the editor, it is (sic) DXEditingPack_2_2_full.exe, 40mb. has a dozen or so other applications with it etc. i know ShadowRunner will have a [-X moment when he reads this, since he gave me a great bit of advice about keeping average poly's down low, and well, quite honestly.. the map i was trying to copy out of has a average poly count of 13. probably why the editor hates it so much, i'm trying to sort it out, honest...

hmmmm, :-k, thanks for posting the code. now i know where to look. math + cones, damn, doesn't add up, i'll go work on my elevator for a bit so the player doesn't have to jump from balcony to balcony risking life and limb to get up on the roof


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Re: 63 zone limit? & other questions - Postby ShadowRunner » 24 Feb 2014, 19:59


Mikak wrote:thanks shadow. i've been using 'copy polygons to brush' alot, rather then using duplicate, but i've been building over several maps, hence copy paste, ill see if i can copy the brush before it is an add/subtract, don't know why i didn't try that before... or ill just rebuild each brush in a fresh map, probably not a bad idea for some small areas, bit daunting for larger more complex geometry tho


Aaaaaah. Forgot to say something fairly vital. Before you copy a brush, select it and right click and choose Transform>Transform Permanently. Also the map you are pasting into, should be fully rebuilt. Sometimes copy/paste is just unavoidable, especially when using DX1 assets. Also copy/paste non-solid brushes separately and actually a lot of them may need removing and rebuilding, using copy polygons to brush.


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Re: 63 zone limit? & other questions - Postby Magus » 26 Feb 2014, 22:07


~DJ~ wrote:so the maximum value for the player's jump with maximum upgraded speed-aug is:
300.000000 x 1.800000 = 540.000000

but what does that even mean? no clue. your pic's nice and cool though and I should go probably sleep now.
GOODLUCK!


Time to apply some physics to these numbers!

JumpZ is the velocity applied to your character when you hit the jump button. I slotted this, the default movement speed (230) and the default gravity value (Z=-950) into the equations of motion and got the following:

Code: Select all
Speed Mult    Peak Jump Height    Forward Distance
1.0           47.368              145.263
1.2           68.211              201.179
1.4           92.842              284.716
1.6           121.263             371.874
1.8           153.474             470.653


Not sure what kind of rounding the engine is doing in the back, but the values are pretty damn close to the lovely test image. Forward distance assumes a flat surface at both ends of the jump.


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Re: 63 zone limit? & other questions - Postby mikak » 27 Feb 2014, 03:21


many thanks Magus. I was still scratching my head over the horizontal jump values.
these numbers (rounded) don't seem to invoke the jerky/shuddering motion that accompanies jc jumping to the heights in my pic, (so better to use these rather than my pic).

Jumping puzzles! (no not annoying ones, i promise)


@ShadowRunner 'transform permanently' solved many problems, ie. my 'mutating when rotated' elevator shaft!


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Re: 63 zone limit? & other questions - Postby Magus » 27 Feb 2014, 20:45


mikak wrote:many thanks Magus. I was still scratching my head over the horizontal jump values.
these numbers (rounded) don't seem to invoke the jerky/shuddering motion that accompanies jc jumping to the heights in my pic, (so better to use these rather than my pic).

Jumping puzzles! (no not annoying ones, i promise)


@ShadowRunner 'transform permanently' solved many problems, ie. my 'mutating when rotated' elevator shaft!


I should point out I've done no actual testing of these values - in the case of the horizontal ones for example, ground friction might lower your movement speed and thus limit forward travel distance...


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Re: 63 zone limit? & other questions - Postby ShadowRunner » 28 Feb 2014, 00:02


Shame this is a DX topic because I would be asking Magus also, why the laws of gravity and Einstein's theories don't match up too.


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Re: 63 zone limit? & other questions - Postby Magus » 28 Feb 2014, 23:27


ShadowRunner wrote:Shame this is a DX topic because I would be asking Magus also, why the laws of gravity and Einstein's theories don't match up too.


If I had an answer, Rollo, I would be claiming my Nobel Prize right about now. :)


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Re: 63 zone limit? & other questions - Postby mikak » 01 Mar 2014, 07:28


oh no, conflicting data :?

i did a quick test map with some subtracted pits to jump across, and noticed my jump distance was slightly longer. using trial and error, i got these approximate (rounded to 32uu grid) horizontal jump distances:

Code: Select all
horizontal jump distance aug progression
0 aug         224uu
lvl 1         320uu
lvl 2         384uu
lvl 3         544uu
lvl 4         672uu


Magus mentioned gravity and friction settings may alter the result; i left all settings at default (zone gravity: x=0, y=0, z=-950. zone ground friction = 8). am i overlooking any other lvl properties that may alter the result? almost everything should all be at default settings, only things i changed were some render settings.

not really a big deal obviously, just trying to vary my maps with a bit of interactive geometry; routes specifically designed to correspond with particular aug lvls.

(solved 1 of my earlier questions: bDirectional = true, fixes the triggerlight so it does have an arrow)


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Re: 63 zone limit? & other questions - Postby ShadowRunner » 01 Mar 2014, 10:04


The only way to be sure is to host something on a server and see that it works.


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Re: 63 zone limit? & other questions - Postby Magus » 01 Mar 2014, 21:50


mikak wrote:oh no, conflicting data :?

i did a quick test map with some subtracted pits to jump across, and noticed my jump distance was slightly longer. using trial and error, i got these approximate (rounded to 32uu grid) horizontal jump distances:

Code: Select all
horizontal jump distance aug progression
0 aug         224uu
lvl 1         320uu
lvl 2         384uu
lvl 3         544uu
lvl 4         672uu


Magus mentioned gravity and friction settings may alter the result; i left all settings at default (zone gravity: x=0, y=0, z=-950. zone ground friction = 8). am i overlooking any other lvl properties that may alter the result? almost everything should all be at default settings, only things i changed were some render settings.

not really a big deal obviously, just trying to vary my maps with a bit of interactive geometry; routes specifically designed to correspond with particular aug lvls.

(solved 1 of my earlier questions: bDirectional = true, fixes the triggerlight so it does have an arrow)


Some default values of the player change between single player testing in the editor and MP testing through the game - which one did you do? :D


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Re: 63 zone limit? & other questions - Postby Poor » 01 Mar 2014, 22:12


The player speed is different in mp.




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