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Regarding Dani


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ShadowRunner
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Re: Regarding Dani - Postby ShadowRunner » 30 Mar 2015, 22:38


If one person could end DX, it would have happened already, the fact we are all still here should warn people not to waste their own time trying...


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Re: Regarding Dani - Postby synthetic » 31 Mar 2015, 00:33


Here in the community we have had whole bunch of people that have constantly "ended" or "killed off" DXMP, one after the other. First Smuggler killed DX off with his nasty anticheat patch, later Nochanc killed dx off with his newbie server monopoly.. then certain someone took all dxmp servers down over series of attacks and using different methods.. 9 years ago. Since Phantom was the first player to push DXMP vulnerabilities to the extremes AND be the most active dxmp player at the same time, I guess one could add him to the already long list of people who have all killed DXMP off. He started that in 2008 which would mean DXMP was "ended" 7 years ago. Meanwhile we had some spammy kid who spent entire days constantly script spamming obscenities in server.. guess he too tried to kill dx off. And sometime in 2014 random southern american immigrant decided hell kill dx off. I lost count already, to be honest.

I think if there is one person that has tried to kill DXMP for around 12-13 years, and constantly failed for those 12 years, then that would be DOGNY. All the other names at least have had some impact on the community, no matter how minor, but to see someone fail for a dozen years is truly some kind of milestone.

If DXMP dies then its because its old and buggy. If a player couldnt kill the game by shutting all servers off for fcking months, then some kids ddos threats are a urine.
Although it is not clear to me with whom exactly the ever active Anax is playing, from what I have seen - checking server lists - the game is dead for a shooter gamer. Time killed it. We could've used that time to prolong its life some years, but we have what we have. I have no doubt that therell be some temporary surges in activity during very specific holiday periods over the year, but the idea of playing dxmp once a year doesnt exactly make me think of a.. well.. non-dead game. I think Christmas was so active just because everybody were trying to get the most out of what couldve been their last chance of having actually good fckin game. Saw lot of old faces.


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Re: Regarding Dani - Postby [FGS]Chees » 31 Mar 2015, 01:10


DX will never die bro.

I wont allow it to. Old game yeah but a true classic and none come close to it in mp game imo... UrT and Ur is closest but again it has no story line like Dx has and SP blows ya mind in Dx every time ya play play it from start. UrT or Quake is intended for younger gamers in the big scheme of things ya know the x box ps 2/3/4 and so on. Dx has a more adult like, serious thing going on but like any mp game you will find idiots trying to fu*k it up no matter how hard ya try to stop them they will alway try! Since Dx was never intended for MP i guess it aint done to bad so far in all these years.

Kinda drunk from Board em and doing nothing due to...meh wont go into that but all above is from my pov. take it how you want. :-D


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Re: Regarding Dani - Postby ShadowRunner » 31 Mar 2015, 02:22


I agree with Ken that the MATCH died probably even in 2006... but coders and mappers did revitalize and bring new experiences since then and I still feel it's worth mapping RPG and that since DXHR, the potential audience is actually quite big.

As for Phantom, he didn't invent that knowledge, in the beginning he was hungry for it and people gave it to him, but it is a kind of pointless argument now, as the fight game is too old to be competitive with other shooters perhaps.

There's always private servers, reunions and who knows, the fight game could make a comeback in future, wouldn't surprise me.


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Re: Regarding Dani - Postby Kaiden » 31 Mar 2015, 18:55


I think if there is one person that has tried to kill DXMP for around 12-13 years, and constantly failed for those 12 years, then that would be DOGNY. All the other names at least have had some impact on the community, no matter how minor, but to see someone fail for a dozen years is truly some kind of milestone.


Ahaha yes. I think we devoted a little too much time to him and notoriety went to his head. He never did work out how to get around AdvBan but spent a lot of time spam reconnecting to servers. Not sure if he tried to kill DXMP though, he did host (although bad) servers and stuff, then again so did DejaVu so you know.


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Re: Regarding Dani - Postby ~[L.O.X]~ » 31 Mar 2015, 20:45


One thing that killed this game is the lack of updates or new game content. It's a shame that these anti-cheat mods/patches released late in the game cycle. Deus Ex lost it's last multiplayer coder who really cared about improving the game. He also created a new gamemode which brought something new to the game. But, before he disappeared he wanted to create a whole new Deus Ex Multiplayer game with a new engine. Reached out for help from other coders and went unanswered. This is where the egos come in.

Anyway, the last nail really was when gamespy masterserver went down. We still have another official masterserver domain which is the fragaholics domain. I've spoken with the owner about the domain which is [CG]Nathan. He told me somebody was already hosting it in Deus Ex. From what I remember the last person who had it was [CG]Redfire. Got in contact with him and he said he no longer have it. So when I asked Nathan who had it in Deus Ex I never got a reply back. Which is a shame really we could of had Alex hosting this domain instead of the unofficial one he's using now were you have to add the line in the deusex.ini.


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Re: Regarding Dani - Postby synthetic » 01 Apr 2015, 00:20


ShadowRunner wrote:and people gave it to him,


He was exclusively 0auger and outside my friends there was nobody who could stay alive longer than couple seconds, that year. I already know its nonsense, but would still appreciate some kind of evidence. Considering how close I was to the same community phantom played in 2006-2008 I take such remarks quite personally. Aside the fact that he started looking for engine vulnerabilities quite publicly within our clan's circle, posting some initial results on forums before the clan died.


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Re: Regarding Dani - Postby Alexander » 01 Apr 2015, 09:00


~[L.O.X]~ wrote:Anyway, the last nail really was when gamespy masterserver went down. We still have another official masterserver domain which is the fragaholics domain. I've spoken with the owner about the domain which is [CG]Nathan. He told me somebody was already hosting it in Deus Ex. From what I remember the last person who had it was [CG]Redfire. Got in contact with him and he said he no longer have it. So when I asked Nathan who had it in Deus Ex I never got a reply back. Which is a shame really we could of had Alex hosting this domain instead of the unofficial one he's using now were you have to add the line in the deusex.ini.


Just a quick response to this, I got in contact with CG a long time ago, before GameSpy went down actually. master.fragaholic.com points to master.deusexnetwork.com, but unfortunately, that only fixes the issue serverside, not for the players.

Code: Select all
; <<>> DiG 9 <<>> @localhost master.fragaholic.com A

;; QUESTION SECTION:
;master.fragaholic.com.      IN   A

;; ANSWER SECTION:
master.fragaholic.com.   3600   IN   CNAME   master.deusexnetwork.com.
master.deusexnetwork.com. 120   IN   CNAME   ny.master.deusexnetwork.com.
ny.master.deusexnetwork.com. 300 IN   A   192.3.203.79


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Re: Regarding Dani - Postby synthetic » 01 Apr 2015, 17:43


~[L.O.X]~ wrote:One thing that killed this game is the lack of updates or new game content. It's a shame that these anti-cheat mods/patches released late in the game cycle. Deus Ex lost it's last multiplayer coder who really cared about improving the game. He also created a new gamemode which brought something new to the game. But, before he disappeared he wanted to create a whole new Deus Ex Multiplayer game with a new engine. Reached out for help from other coders and went unanswered. This is where the egos come in.


You realize that description actually matches about 3 different dxmp veterans? I am quite sure I know who you are talking about, but just thought I'd let you know that.

I was trying to create some kind of coordination effort between the coders, or to at least get them to talk with eachother, but if we leave all kinds of ego issues aside - and we all have an ego - what really put me off was the ridiculous amount of greatly differing opinions on how or why something should be done. Initially when I thought this might have a chance, I somehow managed to overlook the aspect that people may not actually be interested in DXMP as it is, but that each and every one of them might be more determined to create their own game from scratch with barely some kind of resemblance to the original concept.

Or in other words, I think I managed to talk with one coder who knew what DXMP is, but who had really crazy ideas about its future. I mean crazy like crazy crazy. Another coder knew but preferred that he didnt. Third realized it over time and then it was the same as with the previous one: not particularly motivating. Then we have had whole bunch of coders who had no clue what so ever what DXMP even is, and preferred to create some kind of new concept in their head while still stubbornly labeling it DXMP.

For all this to work, there'd have to have been an X amount of people that shared the passion for the same game, but here we see that each and every one of them have their own game :S It doesn't take a scientist to figure out how this is going to go.

Also, coputers read the code but human cooperation happens in a world where relations do matter, and the person you are talking about personally screwed over many of the other prominent modders and coders, not to mention players. Enough for not even 8 years to erode it away. From a strictly human point of view you can see how this could pose as a slight issue.


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Re: Regarding Dani - Postby anax » 01 Apr 2015, 21:00


The only current player (that I know of) who is actively interested in coding for DX is Kai. I would not rule out his skills being a go-to option if such an effort were to be made again to change DXMP for the better, he's very much happy coding mods for the [17] server and outside of that he's released or at least started 2 great tools for server management, one of them being RCON, which I believe actually replaced the other one called Admintool.

Aside from coding mods and mutators he has tried to fix a bug or two after I suggested it. Grenade bugs are actually easy to fix but the only known method of applying the fix causes them to not be shootable, and I'm assuming they would probably fly straight through a player model if thrown. Earlier attempts must have noticed this and left it untouched, maybe hoping someone would fix it in the future...
At least that's a better excuse for a bug going unfixed than to say nade jumping is acceptable by pretending the EMP is some kind of propulsion device or platform, a real excuse for bug abuse that I saw, which would never make sense even in the advanced future of 2017 ~ 2060. It's too small to stand on and doesn't even behave like a platform, it behaves like a thrown grenade which is exactly what it's meant to be. Someone at Eidos or Iron Storm obviously had a funny day when the grenade actors were first coded.

Shuriken knives being fully restocked after picking just one up is even easier yet, I discovered last year a fix already exists in a server package to disable fully refilling the ammo from a single pick. Literally the only reason this will never be accepted is because it was likely fixed too late and by then, picking a knife up and gaining all of them back had already become hard-wired as making up half of the style and skill of Throwing Knives.


Basically what we have always needed, to revamp DXMP is at least 5 coders, and say, 5 others to work on mapping, texturing, model design.
And more to deal with officially releasing said revamp as a sort of replacement. And that's what we appear to have never come close to.
It's not fully impossible yet, just very very very unlikely, mostly due to half the content creators in modern DXMP being more interested in strange one-man projects or *spins wheel* Bouncy Castle power ranger Party mod. And part of that problem itself, as Ken's been saying is they also have differing ideas of what DXMP actually is supposed to be. Many of which likely differ from any resemblance to a DXSP-like experience built for MP.


Last edited by anax on 02 Apr 2015, 16:56, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Regarding Dani - Postby synthetic » 02 Apr 2015, 01:18


Well for me it was sort of unexpected that there'd be so much blatant dislike towards or lack of interest in DXMP itself :S Yes, if I thought about it rationally, I guess I could've realized as much, but I suppose I made a newbie error of getting too deep into my own vision of how all the old good was going to be the new good, lacking the previous bugs, and forgot that maybe someone else might want to create an MMO, or Counter Strike a la Deus Ex minus the bionic man, or some kind of smartphone game. While definitely bitter about it, I cannot honestly ridicule all these visions, but matter of fact remained that all these ideas would not overlap, especially if I am only focused on original concept by the developers and everybody else wants to become developers with unique IP. Some people have adviced me to learn coding, but what am I supposed to do with uscript? Make a new game alone, use 10 years to build it and realize its obsolete and aged by the time anything remotely similar to alpha release is reaching the net? I think practical thinking and wider focus are of deficit around here, contributing to the perpetual stalemate. Smuggler no doubt wouldve preferred to create MTL with a large and capable team. In the end that whole two teams ended up as things usually have around here.

Deja indeed was open for teamwork, but please keep in mind that it is not all that clear whether he would've been capable of actually taking in suggestions from other team members. Then there is the past drama where he personally burned many bridges, not those around him. Also, according to his vision we would've been bottlenecked with the lack of experienced 3D modelers, and even if in theory we could find half a dozen coders whod all miraculously fall in love with DXMP, we'd be pressed hard to find multiple people with 3D modeling skills. Maybe there is one, maybe there is two, but how much time is someone willing to spare, how high is the motivation? And after all that, it'd still be too few.

All the dreaming about shiny DXMP set aside for a moment, there is the small issue with over half of DXMP community being completely incapable and uninterested in actually playing the classic game that the developers released. If we dont even have players, where were the modders supposed to come from? *sigh*


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Re: Regarding Dani - Postby Cozmo » 02 Apr 2015, 21:32


Modders are not to blame. That's insane. Pretty much all of our problems come with the engine, and cannot be fixed with uscript. I doubt anyone who's ever played DXMP is capable of modifying the engine, which afaik is totally illegal and would still need distributing, enforcing etc etc.

The only thing we could fix atm is the triggerbot, and even that means updating ANNA - something only one busy person is able to do (MTL152b1 is too outdated to extend directly. It's also possible to disable crosshair entirely with a mutator, but that's annoying and still leaves a colourful name on-screen for the bot).

If any of the ego stuff in the topic is referring to me at all: all I pushed for was DXMP - as it currently is - on a new/usable engine. Only then would we consider new gamemodes, rebalancing things like the 'please don't target me' F7 aug, AI bots to fight while we wait for players to join etc. I don't see how that "vision" is at all unreasonable, egotistical, not-DXMP, uncooperative or whatever.

Edit: Also, it was always rare for the (now dead) competitive players to even accept a new map, nevermind a new gametype or even slight tweaks. Look at how players reacted to Deja's +2% targ rebalance. Not motivating, to say the least


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Re: Regarding Dani - Postby anax » 03 Apr 2015, 00:47


Modders are not to blame for the problems of the game itself but many who could use their skills to develop a better Deus Ex are not.
Modding is acceptable in every game, DX is no exception to that. BUT Deus Ex Multiplayer is in a very special situation where it is has been left to die with little improvement, probably due to how broken it is. No doubt some modders tried to patch things up, but clearly something failed along the lines in terms of effort, Kai said ingame yesterday that he is just now making progress in fixing the grenade bug, that's gone unfixed for 15 years.

Augged gametype with a skills system was and is the basis of DXMP, 2 years ago I'd still parrot the ignorant ATDM Nazi mantra, not now, I do accept the modded gametypes in DXMP, however this does not stop the fact that Augs is the basis of the game.
All modders need to pool together if we want to make DXMP better and that includes the idea of building a new DXMP from scratch, that is the special situation I am talking about. We are not going to bring DXMP back to life by doing isolated projects or making up mods that have no connection to the original game, let alone the concept of it.

Augged DXMP is very unique among FPS games, it could have been fixed/improved by now but instead we saw it slowly go to waste because it's just too hard for players that come in expecting COD with some cyberpunk and robots thrown in. That isn't to poke fun at them or call them weak, but there's not enough experience players to teach newcomers how to play, another part of DXMP's death again, the lack of players.

Toxic community, broken and vulnerable engine, and time are what killed our game, Dani, DejaVu, and Dogny are all examples of this.


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Re: Regarding Dani - Postby synthetic » 03 Apr 2015, 09:09


I think both of you are - or at least Cozmo is - misunderstanding what I mean.. modders aren't a problem, the fact that nobody likes or even knows DXMP is a problem; and lack of foresight is. Its a shitty situation that overall simply means that nothing good ever gets released. Also, I didn't talk exclusively about uscript, although I made a mention of it in another context (as in learning it by myself). And trigger bot? That is least of our concerns around here, although it does impact the quality of games. I got lot of complaints about the white crosshair in my clans server but I still managed to fill it up and games were played (although it turned out to be ineffective for logical reasons).
UT community modders (because how else do we call them?) have significantly upgraded the engine to a point of being able to (but iirc last i read not yet fully allowed) port the game to some early version of UE2 engine line. We both know thats not possible through uscript alone, but modding is not married to uscript.

As for new content and conservatism: if its good for them, host it and they shut up when they're having fun. Another half of the problem here is that veterans develop comfort zone through years of repetitive practice and if anything changes their stress levels go up, this cant be helped but should not hamper the progress.


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Re: Regarding Dani - Postby synthetic » 03 Apr 2015, 09:27


When it comes to DXMP mods, from fan developer point of view you'd have to ask these questions:

Am I improving the quality of experience in original game (mod) - OR - am I making a new game (mod).

└ If I am improving the original game, I've either established the feasibility of ideas that the highly paid veteran game developers had for DXMP, or simply put my faith in them and don't think too much about that. Both are viable.

└ If I am making a new game, I have to go through the work original developers did (estimating its potential, making dozens of mistakes, potentially failing) and the content required to be made is likely tens of not hundreds of times greater than with the previous approach.


Most all around here for past decade want to make a new game, alone. That stems from the fact that the typical DXMP modder does not play DXMP but plays UED or SDK. This is not meant as an accusation but an observation and a fact.




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