The [FGS] Clan

Posted: **06 Oct 2012, 12:15**

We voted you in, and thus, we want you in.

We're honestly not interested in digging up the past we just want you to complete your trial and be a full member again.

This man speaks the truth.

Posted: **06 Oct 2012, 12:57**

@ DJ, with respect you come across as unreasonable like Nobody and Kaiden,

Let Kaiden, DJ and Nobody or anyone speak.

What are you even on about lol. How am I unreasonable.

This metabolic end product from Kaiden and Nobody and friends isn't going to stop.

Where did I bash you?

Posted: **07 Oct 2012, 08:58**

I don't see anything unfriendly, aggressive, troublemaking, or otherwise about this post. It does mention the past, but there is no blame, other than towards me. You wrongly assumed that I would give anything to be in FGS with a long trial and that I would say yes immediately, without thinking about. I had good times in FGS and I'd like to keep it that way.

This post didn't really generate the discussion I'd hoped for and I wonder if each point in each section was really imagined for a second, who does these things and who doesn't. So for Sonny to say it is shitty, I know where he is coming from. It is a shame that this post has been seen as not biting my lip. It's an app topic and I was simply putting across an initial surprise reaction to 2 months only offer.

The argument was started in my absence and at that point of knowing nothing about trials, I said I would think about it, because at that point I was disappointed and felt I had failed somehow. It's not a problem, if that's your offer, I will think about it. ~Thanks. If I have the choice between 2 week trial with another clan or 2 months and plenty of many metabolic end product comments, I'd rather go where there are no many metabolic end product insinuations about me. That's what I am thinking to be honest. Especially since I am the only person in any of this to actually apologize, take some blame and move on.

Giving me a 2 month trial is saying to everyone and me, that you would like to carry the argument on. Sorry but I am not going to argue anymore about that or this application either.

ShadowRunner wrote:To answer Nobody,

I don't feel it is shitty, I just feel I have failed in some way in this application.

1. I doubt my name and the tag fit properly with ~.

2. I didn't join another clan, despite several offers. I didn't start one. I didn't remove "FGS" from any forum account name. In fact I have never been in any other clan in the last 6 years, except when I was newb for a few weeks. I quit a REN trial to continue FGS, so I wonder how many FGS have only ever been in one clan for that long? All my EM correspondance was with the FGS tag. To be asked if I am serious makes me feel like I have failed. It doesn't make you feel like complaining, just makes you concerned, I applied because I thought there were no issues between myself and FGS.

I can understand why FGS might want a trial but I've already apologized, I was shocked when I came back from a break to hear about cheating and see admins firing neutrons from shock rifles and yeah, I'm sure no-one wants to revisit the argument, I made a mistake, I left over personal differences of opinion, it was not any issue to do with FGS itself, but that point seems to have been lost. My mistake was to put my personal differences before the clan itself. If any of those issues still existed, I wouldn't have re-applied. By re-applying is it not very obvious that I am eating much humble pie? Even Kaiden couldn't resist How much humble pie is needed exactly and for how long?

3. Did we not set up a FB group, moddb page, is it not 60th out of 17,000 right now? Do I just play DX or do I do stuff with other FGS members and spend time with them? I seriously don't know what else I could do to prove commitment to FGS or DXMP or FGS members. I put myself down for UR project, Cozmo and Hengsha, plus I was an avid SG fan and still work on them, plus I am ready anytime to convert the WW2 stuff to either a giant RPG or AG maps or both. Chinny works harder, but I try.

4. I must have talked about re-applying with half the clan first or vice versa, they talked to me. I do regret not joining last Christmas when Kosh asked, but I have been telling people for months that I would get around to re-applying after hard work on Hengsha and then the work took longer and longer. I don't know why this has come as such a surprise and people are asking me if this is a genuine application.

5. I am really surprised most of all, because I don't swear hardly, I don't massacre relentlessly too often, I always teach people altfire bind or forum address etc, I'm not the best player in the world, but I don't swear, admin abuse, insult other clans, mess up the teams, bug (except floor nades), I dont quit battles, reset scores, I don't hang out with any former antagonists of FGS, I didn't rival you guys, start a clan, or badmouth you, so yes, it does come as a surprise.

Well thank you very much for considering the application and inviting me to trial, it was actually an application for full membership and nothing more, so I am confused about the "convinced" issue, I don't see what change I can bring if I am just a member. If you don't mind I'd like to think about your offer

You don't need me, you have Chees and Chin and Kalman and Majster and Khaam, all great mappers. If you really feel 2 months trial is what is right, then we don't have to fall out about it. I got a pm from at least one FGS telling me to continue arguing about the trial. So while yesterday I was probably over-reacting, I just thought I would repost my initial reaction to Nobody, because it explains what I wanted to say about 2 months trial, just my initial reaction. If you don't agree with that and even demoted leaders must do trials and for 2 months, then like I said, can I think about that

better than us arguing about other stuff

Posted: **07 Oct 2012, 10:13**

It's dawning on me that you intend to give everybody no exceptions a 2 month trial, is this correct?

Posted: **07 Oct 2012, 11:18**

Yes, that I'm trying to tell you for the past 5 pages. It's really nothing particular against you.. AND it's not ME who applies the trial but FGS as whole. I just often notify the results.

Also, this trial is set to be MAXIMUM of two months. It can be over in 4 weeks as well.
Furthermore, as I already stated above.. if people like chinny, majestic or myself would leave FGS, then we would enter the mandatory trial period too, if our re-application gets accepted.

I want to repeat myself yet again.. It's no vendetta against you. Even Cozmo got a trial and we all should know him pretty well.

Posted: **07 Oct 2012, 13:10**

Everyone gets an initial 2 month trial, you're not getting special treatment. That's what this discussion was about. Your trial can get cut short, though...

Posted: **07 Oct 2012, 13:36**

Mastakilla wrote:Everyone gets an initial 2 month trial, you're not getting special treatment. That's what this discussion was about. Your trial can get cut short, though...

Yes, this means you get a trial which will n ot exceed 2 months but can be shorter of course.

Posted: **07 Oct 2012, 13:36**

So your personal comments about me to Sonny were completely useless and unnecessary then. You didn't tell Sonny that everyone is 2 months, you gave specific reasons for Shadowrunner having a 2 month trial. You've changed the goalposts.

Here's the thing guys, so we can all go home and carry on.

For months I have had members asking me to rejoin, the only stipulation was a vote, no-one mentioned a trial.

Offering a 2 week trial would have been cheeky, but understandable. However, 2 month trial and telling Sonny why it's so necessary is not. I ignored that personal jab and stuck to business, giving reasons why 2 months comes as a surprise and no-one replied to any of those issues, except mapping and suddenly the goalposts had changed from it being past trouble, to mandatory for everyone, being the reason.

If you had offered a 2 month trial and kept your mouth shut I almost certainly would have continued my silence and had no choice to accept it without a word of protest, but seeing the way you dealt with Sonny by inferring things about me that aren't true and then cranking it up to "root of evil" and talking about yourself, that is the point at which your 2 month trial offer became less attractive.

I honestly have nothing further to say. I'm just repeating myself otherwise. No-one offering me my membership was mentioning any trial, the people asking either said nothing or mentioned a vote. So it does come as a surprise. Also surprising to see the reasons for it change from page 2 to page 3. And surprising even more still to see someone mention the past. So sorry the advertising was misleading, I need to go away and think about it.

All of this is irrelevant whether Noodz was the root of evil kicking off with Sonny, because if I had known it was 2 months mandatory, I would not have applied at this time, so thank you, but I don't choose to trial for 2 months right now, sorry. I hope this can be my last post.

Posted: **07 Oct 2012, 13:54**

I'd appreciate it, if you read what I write.
You say, you changed and you wanted a new beginning while I "froze" back then and just suddenly unfroze at the time of your application.
However, when reparsing the past pages, I see the same like one, two or three years ago.. I'm wondering what exactly has changed in your mind in particular.

Anyway.. since you have some weird interpretation about the trial towards you again:

ShadowRunner wrote:You didn't tell Sonny that everyone is 2 months, you gave specific reasons for Shadowrunner having a 2 month trial.

Read my answer to Sonny once more:

~][FGS][Nobody~ wrote:It's not shitty, it's adequate.
People leaving the clan had their reasons to leave.
In this case the trial time will ensure that those people are convinced of the clan like it is now.

Now I am having a simple question and I demand a simple answer..
WHERE on that quote did I refer to YOU?

REMEMBER: Please be so kind and give me a SIMPLE and PLAIN answer, no novel.

Posted: **07 Oct 2012, 14:26**

Your English is better than my German, but it is very clear that you tell Sonny it's because I left "people had their reasons" and because you are "unconvinced" of the clan not remaining as it is now. That answers both questions. Bearing in mind this statement comes as a 1. surprise and different offer from previous offers 2. It was made before I had replied to your offer. I only asked for time to think about it.

Again, my FIRST reply to your offer is quite friendly, positive, just stating good reasons why I am an exceptional applicant.
After all it's an app topic right.

Do you not see that if FGS offer A to a guy, then give him B, he will politely question it. That's all I was trying to do.
Also whatever you say, the reasons changed from page 2 to page 3 or whatever. One day it was "leaving/unconvinced", next day it WASN'T personal, it was normal everyone. Interesting cos I don't remember Cozmo trialling. This was honestly a friendly gesture of peace on my part, but it ended up with big capital letters from you, simply because Sonny gave an opinion and you cast doubt "unconvinced" of my character, hardly invites a guy to join, does it?

I WANT TO PUT ON THE [FGS] TAG, I KNOW I HAVE EARNED THIS IN THE LAST 6 YEARS, SO DO 11 OTHERS? PROBLEM?
If it is then someone is seriously living in the past and I have made an error asking them for that privelege.

Don't forget, you were the only person who complained about me wearing the tag, out of like 40 dxmp players?
Are you really sure you and Krisz or whoever aren't out of line with your clan members? Despite what other members said, you asked me to remove the tag, so I did. Now I re-apply and you are dragging up my leaving and putting Sonny straight, before I even spoke.

I probably would have accepted a 2 month trial, but now I probably won't even do it for 2 weeks. I feel justified in making this point to you. You were the only person to object about me wearing the tag. Other members liked it. I feel I have earned it this year, support to your mappers, WW2, Hengsha, competition judge, I do my bit. Haven't I earned this right.

The worrying thing, is that you will only argue about what ppl say, not what they do. Do my actions not speak louder? Is it not my right according to other 11 others to put my [FGS] tag back on? According to 2 guys, one is "unconvinced". Obviously my actions weren't good enough, I didn't help your mappers enough, I wasn't creative enough, I failed.

Posted: **07 Oct 2012, 15:34**

ShadowRunner wrote:I probably would have accepted a 2 month trial, but now I probably won't even do it for 2 weeks. I feel justified in making this point to you. You were the only person to object about me wearing the tag. Other members liked it.

I'm not going to answer all of your post because I demanded a simple and plain answer.
So I'll just answer your last statement because you seem to have a major misunderstanding according to people's opinions..
Are you familiar with the concept of the open world assumtion?

wikipedia wrote:In formal logic, the open world assumption is the assumption that the truth-value of a statement is independent of whether or not it is known by any single observer or agent to be true.

Adapted to our context it means, 'no objections' don't automatically mean that all agree with you. However you DO seem to interpret it as automatically agreeing with you.

Anyway.. since you skipped my positive text passages again, I want to repeat myself a 1000th time.
I do value your work very much. Your passion on that projects are completely out of the question.
..and basing on your latest mapping/modding related actions, you deserve the tag more than I do..
However, the penalty seems to be time consuming endless debates about trifles.
This topic is a repetitive argument about one and the same thing because our explanations don't seem to be heared.

Posted: **07 Oct 2012, 15:42**

So are you gonna accept the trial or not.

I don't care what some members might've said to you. Alot of people voted you in but that doesn't take away the fact that EVERYONE even when votes are 100% in favour, gets the 2 month trial. Take it or leave it, this discussion isn't going anywhere because you're trying really hard to read past what Nobody is trying to say.

Posted: **07 Oct 2012, 15:52**

I have answered your question Nobody... I feel this comment is referring to me and our arguments in the past.

had their reasons for leaving...unconvinced of the clan as it is now

I also felt it was a little hasty, since I MIGHT have agreed to a 2 month trial, but you give me an excuse to question it and when I did, the reasons changed, it suddenly became mandatory. You had the option to question me at any time in the last 14 days prior.

Previously I just wore the tag when I fought with FGS and FGS loved it. Then you complained and so I respected you and stopped. You said I must apply. I discussed this with people, it was said that I would have to apply and I would have to take a vote. All this is understandable. So I respected you, I didn't wear the tag, I re-applied. Now suddenly the goalposts change, Cozmo has no trial right, Nobody and Chinny too, but Shadowrunner must 2 months and must hear how people are "unconvinced". Either urinate or get off the toilet. Either way, it's no reason for a trial, the fact that 2 people were not convinced against 11 others.

Don't beat yourself up, you said your feelings, I said mine. I feel it is my right to wear that tag. We disagree. You seem hellbent on having an argument. I am not going to do that. If I reply to any more posts, people can say I like to argue with Nobody and I think he is the root of all evil, which I don't think. So I am going to politely pass on your offer. It's not a good offer when combined with "unconvinced". This is not a truthful assessment of my feelings for FGS. I feel this year I earned the right to put it back on and your offer is slightly inappropriate given my knowledge of FGS and the loyalty I have shown FGS in the last year.

When Chin told me it would be a trial, I tried to discuss it with him too. All I can do is refer you constantly back to my original reply to your offer, and that it contains more points than mapping, but points about character, behaviour, which so far you ignore and say "unconvinced" instead. It is a little bit insulting when combined with 2 months offer?

Masta - ok well if I dont join or start a clan, I'll consider that in future, now I HAVE been told that people get a trial and people are "unconvinced" in my case. Thanks for the heads up.

Perhaps you would like to show some evidence as to why people should be unconvinced. I think it is fair and you have the right, to talk about the past, or anything in the present, that is a reason why anyone should be "unconvinced" that having done what you ask and applied, that I can't now wear the tag for 2 months at least. Do you actually have any reason at all to not be convinced that [FGS]Shadowrunner is a good thing? Do you not think that this is just going to end as "Shadowrunner argued with Nobody again". So I should decline your offer, thank you very much. If it had been clear about 2 months trial, I would not have applied at this time. Plus obviously not everyone is "convinced", oh well, must try harder if I ever apply to a clan again.

Posted: **07 Oct 2012, 16:16**

Actually, my trial lasted longer than 2 months, thought I'd done something very wrong or wasn't trusted lol. I decided I wouldn't complain about the trial system until I'd put up with it, just for legitimacy. I think we're a bit obsessed with rules here, considering the community is like the same <80 people or so.

IMO, let's delete all the posts of this topic and get back to business with the application. It's like 6 pages of nothing.

Posted: **07 Oct 2012, 17:02**

ShadowRunner wrote:Perhaps you would like to show some evidence as to why people should be unconvinced. I think it is fair and you have the right, to talk about the past, or anything in the present, that is a reason why anyone should be "unconvinced" that having done what you ask and applied, that I can't now wear the tag for 2 months at least. Do you actually have any reason at all to not be convinced that [FGS]Shadowrunner is a good thing?

Let's say there's not a single reason to be unconvinced, the trial still stands. Like I said even a 100% yes from all members still warrants a trial as the system currently stands. We're probably going to have a discussion soon about the trial system as it seems not all members believe in it anymore. But you do understand we can't just suddenly change things because you don't like it or because you didn't fully understand what was going on? Granted, it should've said that 2 month trial is mandatory in the application topic itself.

The [FGS] Clan

Applying: Shadowrunner

Re: Applying: Shadowrunner

Re: Applying: Shadowrunner

Re: Applying: Shadowrunner

Re: Applying: Shadowrunner

Re: Applying: Shadowrunner

Re: Applying: Shadowrunner

Re: Applying: Shadowrunner

Re: Applying: Shadowrunner

Re: Applying: Shadowrunner

Re: Applying: Shadowrunner

Re: Applying: Shadowrunner

Re: Applying: Shadowrunner

Re: Applying: Shadowrunner

Re: Applying: Shadowrunner

Re: Applying: Shadowrunner