The [FGS] Clan

Hi everyone;

I'm having problems with my new map, DXMP_Railways, in that as the work progressed, the map became uneditable.

First off when I was "Play level" ing the map DX crashed, followed shortly thereafter by UnrealEd itself (I'm using the first version as it comes with the Deus Ex SDK) after which the map was so badly corrupted that UE couldnt even open it without crashing.

Fortunately, it was only a late draft, I had been saving new versions to new files routinely and it was Draft 40 that I basically wrote off as corrupt.

Problem is that as I'm getting close to finishing "Play Level" DX crashes are becoming more common place and in the latest version, I was trying to manipulate the track roadbed (it's about 12000 X 600 X 40 or something) and that causes the UnrealEd to hang after it supposidly finishes rebuilding.

In all cases I've only had Deus Ex crash with the map when its playing from the editor, so far, but when it crashes its real bad. I get a black screen, I think the HUD stays on but nothing works and I have seriously coax the computer to bring up Task Manager and kill the process. I was in Karkys server and had a very similar problem, shadownick said it was a "debug eatmem" bug something about the system trying to use 2GB of ram, suggesting that I change rendering device for that problem.

Any ideas?

nm partly, I opened a version, deleted the trackbed and played the map without issue, but I have had the problems above.

Additionally, though I have a GeForce 550 Ti, sometimes, e.g. when walking on the tracks leaving the train station, my FPS plunges down to the mid 30s. Is this a sign that I've used too many brushes in that area and should I now try to make that more conservative?

Ah screw it, UE just crashed on me again

When exactly is it crashing, do you see any of the map at all in "play level", or it is black immediately?

Try to open the map, then go to your system folder and open the editor log.
Tell us what it says or post the editor log here please.
If the editor log result is not obvious to you, then maybe post the map here or pm it to me please.

If you want fps more than 30, I'm guessing you need to remove probably some sleepers as people recommended, although I can't be sure until I have seen the map. It could also be, you think you are using the grid properly, but actually you aren't. I'm just guessing the most likely causes based on other first maps by people. It's possible you aren't using powers of 2 correctly, My maps got a lot better when I realized there is a difference between 324 and 328. Another common beginner error is untidy work, actors outside the map or brushes the mapper didn't even know about, or copy/paste sins. I can only guess without seeing the editor log. You might even have a BSP error that is crashing the map. If I can take a look, it will be a lot easier to see if the problem is the map or your graphics.

When you open your map in UnrealEd, would the railway be visible from that point without moving? The engine fails when trying to render too many surfaces (eg. maybe the sleepers) so it might be crashing that way as soon as it's opened. I had this on a couple of maps, I think you can fix it by removing the 3D view before opening or something.

yep, choose in 3D view. Mode>Perspective or Mode>textures, then try opening the map. Also make the 3D view smaller can help, if the problem is not too serious.

I used to be able to fix play level crashes by not having Unreal Ed take up all the screen
Don't think it'll help but it's a possibility I guess



If you don't mind, can you send us a version of the map that's crashing for you, and see if it does the same for us, and maybe we can help figure it out more easily?

Whiplash wrote:I get a black screen, I think the HUD stays on but nothing works and I have seriously coax the computer to bring up Task Manager and kill the process.

I bet your logfile shows those lines, if it's not too incomplete..

Log: Anomalous singularity in URender::DrawWorld
Critical: URender::OccludeBsp
Critical: URender::OccludeFrame
Log: Anomalous singularity in URender::DrawWorld
Critical: URender::OccludeBsp
Critical: URender::OccludeFrame
Log: Anomalous singularity in URender::DrawWorld
Critical: URender::OccludeBsp
Critical: URender::OccludeFrame
Log: Anomalous singularity in URender::DrawWorld
Critical: URender::OccludeBsp
Critical: URender::OccludeFrame
Log: Anomalous singularity in URender::DrawWorld

You're right, those lines are in the log. I've zipped up the current version and posted it here: though before anyone d/ls it I should explain what I'm doing with it the moment.

Also included is a focus screenshot of the new sleeper layout I'm trying as well as the last Editor log.

In the latest draft, I got rid of the old trackbed (pebble bed) with a plan to replace both the trackbed and the sleepers with a flat surface, trackbed raised to the level the of the rail, while the sleepers will be put in first as a subtraction brush, then as an addition brush, so that it appears as a flat surface of alternating sleeper and ballast. I've done one sleeper in the new arrangement.

The problem currently is that when I try to add a light to that area (possibly any other) UnrealEd crashes almost instantly.

BTW what was that about the "power of two" should all/most of my brushes have 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128 ... etc etc as sizes?

Whiplash wrote:BTW what was that about the "power of two" should all/most of my brushes have 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128 ... etc etc as sizes?

Just no odd numbers is the main thing

Whiplash wrote:You're right, those lines are in the log. I've zipped up the current version and posted it here: though before anyone d/ls it I should explain what I'm doing with it the moment.

Also included is a focus screenshot of the new sleeper layout I'm trying as well as the last Editor log.

In the latest draft, I got rid of the old trackbed (pebble bed) with a plan to replace both the trackbed and the sleepers with a flat surface, trackbed raised to the level the of the rail, while the sleepers will be put in first as a subtraction brush, then as an addition brush, so that it appears as a flat surface of alternating sleeper and ballast. I've done one sleeper in the new arrangement.

The problem currently is that when I try to add a light to that area (possibly any other) UnrealEd crashes almost instantly.

BTW what was that about the "power of two" should all/most of my brushes have 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128 ... etc etc as sizes?

Well, it worth using sizes that are divisible by a power of 2.
So divisible by the numbers you mentioned.
Practically all numbers should be divisible by 8 or AT LEAST 4 for normal brushwork.

I've noticed you used a width of 30 for the sleepers.. there you could have easily used 32.
Using other sizes mess up the proper grid placing. Thus, you get the feeling that the grid is working against you, not with you.
In fact, if you then disable the grid and start placing things freehand, the editor will start working against you.
Because no matter how presice you try to fit a brush to the grid manually, it will never fit perfectly.

The following picture is a good example.. Number1: The doors are not aligned to the subtract brush
Number2: The same counts to the zoneportal
Number3: This one is pretty weird because the vertices of that subtract brush are not overlapping.. as if the brush is rotated in some way.. except that this can only be seen on the left and not the right edge.
It almost looks like locations of the vertices were edited and that without grid.
Also I noticed your Nodes-Polys-Ratio is above 3.4, which is not good. Actually it shouldn't exceed 2.5 to ensure a stable map.

So summarizing.. there are several things that cumulate I think.

Well, it worth using sizes that are divisible by a power of 2.
So divisible by the numbers you mentioned.
Practically all numbers should be divisible by 8 or AT LEAST 4 for normal brushwork.

Gotcha

I've noticed you used a width of 30 for the sleepers.. there you could have easily used 32.

That all has to be ripped up and redone anyway so I can make new sleepers with 32 width.

As to the picture, where is this?

Number1: The doors are not aligned to the subtract brush
Number2: The same counts to the zoneportal
Number3: This one is pretty weird because the vertices of that subtract brush are not overlapping.. as if the brush is rotated in some way.. except that this can only be seen on the left and not the right edge.
It almost looks like locations of the vertices were edited and that without grid.
Also I noticed your Nodes-Polys-Ratio is above 3.4, which is not good. Actually it shouldn't exceed 2.5 to ensure a stable map.

Number 1: You sure? They looked ok to me!
Number 2: I'm not sure what you mean about the zoneportal.
Number 3: I can't make heads nor tails of that point at all
As to the Nodes-Polys-Ratio, again no idea what that is, but how do I fix it?

Whiplash wrote: Number 1: You sure? They looked ok to me!
Number 2: I'm not sure what you mean about the zoneportal.
Number 3: I can't make heads nor tails of that point at all
As to the Nodes-Polys-Ratio, again no idea what that is, but how do I fix it?

Number1: In some way it's aligned but I'm talking of perfect alignment, not approximated one.
Number2: The upper end of the zoneportal is above the yellow line, not on it.. thus approximatively aligend too.
Number3: Umm.. not sure how to explain this.. Usually if you look at a cube brush in the 2D views, you see a rectangle.
This is because you just see the front edges from your line of gaze.
However, in the picture on the left side of the yellow brush, you see two yellow lines close to eachother. They both belong to one the same brush. Usually you should just see one line because the line from the brush's back-end is covered by the line of the front-end.

The last question is a bit hard to explain..
To completely understand that, a bunch of background knowledge is required.
I'll try to explain it simple and plain..
Imagine you have a map that just consists of one cube brush. A cube consists of 6 surfaces, which are 6 polygons.
When rebuilding a map, the editor runs an algorithm which cuts the polygons into a set of parts.. the so called Nodes.
The amount of parts/nodes that the polygon will be cut depends on the shape of the polygon itself but also on the influence of other polygons that interact with this polygon. Explaining why this is done at all would exceed the scope of the initial question. Simply believe that it's required.
Anyway.. since it's hard to explain, I'll continue the cube example..
So the cube got 6 polygons. The rebuild process will create 6 nodes out of it.
So after the rebuild, we got the best case: we have 6 polygons and 6 nodes which results in a Nodes-Polys-Ratio of 1.
The following picture shows the cube: As you see on the picture, the surfaces are plain because each polygon consists of exactly one node.
On practical mapping, this is impossible to achieve, literally because maps consist of more than a single cube.
The next picture will illustrate that: As you see, I've placed a door-like brush inside the cube. That new brush interferes with the bottom of the cube.
You can also see that the bottom polygon of the cube is not plain anymore.
It consists of 3 strips, which means the bottom polygon was cut into 3 nodes.
So for simplicity we just focus on the first cube.
Now that cube has still 6 polygons but 8 Nodes. (The 5 Nodes of the side-wall and ceiling polygons AND the 3 Nodes of the bottom polygon)
That's just an academic example. In practise much more polygons interact with eachother, which causes each polygon to be cut into more Nodes.
The general goal is to keep the amount of Nodes in check.
This can be achieved by using the certain brush sizes, working on the grid and using semi-solids.
When all these things are considered, you can think further by taking map-design aspects into account.
That means for instance.. avoid complexity hot-spots.
A very good example how NOT to do it is the Stargate room in the base of DXSG_CMD_V1.
That's a complexity hotspot compared to the rest of the base.
Anyway.. that last example was just an outlook, how far opimization thoughts can go.
First mind the basic things, which will significantly optimize the map already


So yeah, I hope that answered some questions. I'm tried and goto bed now, good night!

Updates:

I deleted all the sleepers from my map and put down a single brush of trackbed, it doesnt crash UE anymore in addition my FPS has gone up 30 or more in all related areas. In addition, it brough the nodes/polys ratio down to 2.51.

On the downside, it does look awful now and I'm going to have to consider laying sleepers into it flat, as I considered in earlier posts.

I get it now that I'm going to have to rely on grid-assisted layout a lot more and avoid using freehand brushwork and just about any cost. I can live with that.

Where did you find those semi-rotated door and subtraction brush problems? Are all the door/subtraction pairs FUBAR? or just some of them?
As for that green line that you pointed to in your pic, I don't know what that is and have nothing like it that I can see.

Are you using a different version of UnrealEd?

Finally, I have no idea what a Zone Portal is ... other than laying down brushes and classes I'm a bit of a n00b at this so one of ye will have to give me the idiots explanation

Whiplash wrote:I deleted all the sleepers from my map and put down a single brush of trackbed, it doesnt crash UE anymore in addition my FPS has gone up 30 or more in all related areas. In addition, it brough the nodes/polys ratio down to 2.51.

On the downside, it does look awful now and I'm going to have to consider laying sleepers into it flat, as I considered in earlier posts.

I get it now that I'm going to have to rely on grid-assisted layout a lot more and avoid using freehand brushwork and just about any cost. I can live with that.

Cool, great!

Whiplash wrote:Where did you find those semi-rotated door and subtraction brush problems?

It just looked like rotated because I couldn't explain it better. I've now checked it more precise and that double line is at both sides..
In other words, I have no Idea how you did that. xD
It's at the location where the red arrow is pointing to in the picture below. I've now separated the brush and zomes very close to the malicious edge to show you exactly what I mean. The vertex denoted with 1 is the normal edge but wtf is 2? o_O
It also belongs to that brush but it's like floating beside the actual brush.

Also, that zoneportal is at the same location. If you didn't place it then somebody else must have done it because zoneportals don't place itself.

used a width of 30

powers of 2 for everything, i.e. 32, 64, 128. Even one thing is 29 or 30, it is like a huge spanner in a machine.

You can use 80 and 96 as well of course, if you're using grid 4 for example, it's ok to have 44 if you really must, but usually it's safest to use 16, 24, 32, 128, 256 and 512 as the most common brush sizes. Working less than grid 4 is sometimes necessary, but imo not a good habit.